Curse

UnChosen · Nov 24, 2009, 01:09 AM // 01:09

Why am I not surprised? People are getting so used to whining for skill nerfs and always getting what they want they now do it before the previous one even gets nerfed. ER healing is better than monk healing? GOOD! At least now they're good at something other than being a utility bot. You don't get this many people worked up about how the ele's original role got completely destroyed thanks to hard mode's super armor, anti burning and all of those crap. With the amount of pug failure lately thank god there's at least one character that I have confidence in being not horrible.

reaper with no name · Nov 24, 2009, 01:31 AM // 01:31

That's because elementalists were not completely neutered. They still retained their utility capabilities. And depending on what the next skill update holds, they may regain their former tanking status.

Saying that monks can out-party heal ER eles is ridiculous. In the time it takes a monk to cast Heal Party, an ER ele can infuse half the party. And in the time it takes for Heal Party to recharge, the ER ele will have infused the other half of the party. In other words, he's beaten the monk in party healing.

And let's not forget that the ER ele can spam infuse all day, whereas a monk cannot afford to spam Heal Party.

Zahr Dalsk · Nov 24, 2009, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by athariel

Btw, when playing with H/H, using infuse rapidly really messes up their AI (they drop all their prots/heals on you)

Ah, but if you're an IR infuse spammer, you don't need any prots or heals on them.

StormX · Nov 24, 2009, 04:51 AM // 04:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

ER is not as over powered as you think.
1. If ER goes down, your team get's in huge trouble for a good 30 seconds.
2. No condition or hex removal. If your physicals are pounded by blind, to bad.
3. Spamming a spell that leaves you at 50% health makes you the prime target of any PvE foe.

I'm not sure about you, with it's strength it has it's major weaknesses. Unlike perma if he dies you team should be fine, if the ER dies your party loses their bonds.

QFT. I tried the ER build and didn't like it...the hench monks kept wasting their energy healing me and being at constant 50% meant the mobs would attack me first. Some will say don't bring hench then, but relying solely on an infuser? =bad. esp with my rubbish connection(and bad reflexes QQ) I can't catch spikes well. IMO prot > mass heal, especially in HM and monks can do the protting better.

Anyway I always see people spamming "LF monk" but never "LF ER infuser". Usually Ele healer is only used as a last resort. Maybe I'm playing in the wrong areas but I think overall a good HB is still more reliable. At least it doesn't rely on a gimmick that screws you up the minute your bonds get stripped.

reaper with no name · Nov 24, 2009, 05:27 AM // 05:27

One problem: ER healers are better at prot.

Tenebrae · Nov 24, 2009, 09:41 AM // 09:41

Well since eles have more energy storage they should be better spell spammers but this ...... i dont see any monks complaining out there. Only saw ER healers filling party spots when cant find monks :/

reaper with no name · Nov 24, 2009, 03:46 PM // 15:46

That's because it's not currently part of the meta, due to the fact that most of the game's community either doesn't know about it or is stuck in the "durr, monks are best healers cuz of DF, durr" mindset and refuses to even understand how it works.

But rest assured, if it does become part of the meta and monks start being phased out, you'll definitely start to see some complaints.

Isn't it better to nip this one in the bud, rather than let it become meta and make a lot of people angry when it does get nerfed?

MagmaRed · Nov 24, 2009, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Necros are bet healers than Rits due to Soul Reaping. Assassin/Warrior uses a scythe better than a Derv. Paragon uses SY better than a Warrior. Ranger uses Necro touch skills better than a Necro. How many things in the game will you want to change before you finish? All of the things I have seen you ask to have changed have been around your particular play style. I don't use Sabway or Discordway. I don't use spirit spamming heroes either. I don't use perma SF. I don't use SY. I don't use, and have never been on a team with an E/Mo healer/protector. But if people want to use them, let them. Unless what it is replacing (Monk healing) becomes insufficient it isn't a problem. Monk healing and Monk protection works good, and better than most options, if not all options.

Until it is used because Monk healing does not work, just play how you want to and let everyone else do the same.

reaper with no name · Nov 24, 2009, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Actually, I don't monk in PvE.

I don't recall ever speaking out against SY!, sabway, or spirit spam. The only things I've been really vocal about needing a change is SF, ER, and dervishes.

It has nothing to do with my "playstyle", it's about the fact that the existence of the ER build removes the purpose of playing as a primary monk. In other words, the class might as well not exist, since you'd always be better off with an ER healer.

Paragons using SY! better than other classes is fine, because the paragon does not completely take over another profession's role by doing so (warriors have many things they can do far better than paragons).

Necromancers healing better than Ritualists is fine because Ritualists have other things they can do better than necros (such as spirit spam).

With the exception of condition and hex removal, there is nothing that a monk can do better than an ER healer. To say that ER is fine is equivalent to saying that monks who focus on healing and prot instead of condition/hex removal are suboptimal in the same way that a mending warrior is suboptimal (ie, focusing on something someone else can do better to the detriment of what you are better at).

doomfodder · Nov 24, 2009, 08:26 PM // 20:26

.. JUST leave it alone. It's such a drag goin to a town to do the daily ZB/ZM and no healers are there. Give it a rest. So an Ele can B a healer/protter. GOOD!!!! At least they can play instead of adding a hero/hench to an HM party.

THERE IS NO DOWNSIDE TO AN ELE BEING A HEALER. A HM PUG will STILL take a HUMAN Mo over an Ele Healer almost every single time IF one is available.

reaper with no name · Nov 24, 2009, 09:34 PM // 21:34

No, but there is a downside to them doing it better than a monk. That is, there's no longer any reason for the monk to be used.

Chthon · Nov 24, 2009, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

snip

Yeah, I see what you did there. My point wasn't that ER isn't so strong a nerf would be unjustified. My point was that this topic has come up all of the sudden and I'm suspicious of the sudden attention. ER is no more or less powerful than it was last week when no one seemed to even remotely care. The skill hasn't changed. What's changed is Dhuum arrived and he just happens to be designed in a way that makes him particularly easy for ER eles. So we've got folks who are basically saying "I can't beat Dhuum, but other people who use ER can! NERF THE OTHER PLAYERS!!!" and some other folks saying "hey, a-net, we know you always eventually cave in to cries of 'nerf,' but let's not be kneejerk about this -- please nerf ER in a manner that doesn't totally break it." Really, why should anyone care any more about ER's degree of overpoweredness than they did a week ago? Is any of this thread anything other than e-peen envy or attempts to preemptively counsel a-net away from a kneejerk overnerf to appease the e-peen envious?

Age · Nov 24, 2009, 10:40 PM // 22:40

I would rather have Monk they can use WoH along with IH.

Test Me · Nov 25, 2009, 09:04 AM // 09:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Actually, I don't monk in PvE.

....

it's about the fact that the existence of the ER build removes the purpose of playing as a primary monk.

FAIL.

ER is not used in overpowered/solo farms like 55, 600, perma. Enough.

Lishy · Nov 25, 2009, 10:17 AM // 10:17

Either the posters in this thread lack that much knowledge of the game, or we all got trolled ;3

I think I started to realize that as soon as the QQ about eles making monks useless started. Bwahahaha, that comparison is funneh!

Day Trooper · Nov 25, 2009, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by StormX

QFT. I tried the ER build and didn't like it...the hench monks kept wasting their energy healing me and being at constant 50% meant the mobs would attack me first. Some will say don't bring hench then, but relying solely on an infuser? =bad. esp with my rubbish connection(and bad reflexes QQ) I can't catch spikes well. IMO prot > mass heal, especially in HM and monks can do the protting better.

Anyway I always see people spamming "LF monk" but never "LF ER infuser". Usually Ele healer is only used as a last resort. Maybe I'm playing in the wrong areas but I think overall a good HB is still more reliable. At least it doesn't rely on a gimmick that screws you up the minute your bonds get stripped.

This. End of story.

I've also tried the ER infuser and frankly hated the build. My HB monk > ER infuser anyday. (Although admittedly I haven't tried an ER prot build yet, so I really can't comment there.)

Until I see pugs shutting monks out of groups and only taking E/Mos then I don't see what the problem is. Of course on the flip side, if E/Mo does become the meta then yes a nerf is in order - but not now...

reaper with no name · Nov 25, 2009, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Yeah, I see what you did there. My point wasn't that ER isn't so strong a nerf would be unjustified. My point was that this topic has come up all of the sudden and I'm suspicious of the sudden attention. ER is no more or less powerful than it was last week when no one seemed to even remotely care. The skill hasn't changed. What's changed is Dhuum arrived and he just happens to be designed in a way that makes him particularly easy for ER eles. So we've got folks who are basically saying "I can't beat Dhuum, but other people who use ER can! NERF THE OTHER PLAYERS!!!" and some other folks saying "hey, a-net, we know you always eventually cave in to cries of 'nerf,' but let's not be kneejerk about this -- please nerf ER in a manner that doesn't totally break it." Really, why should anyone care any more about ER's degree of overpoweredness than they did a week ago? Is any of this thread anything other than e-peen envy or attempts to preemptively counsel a-net away from a kneejerk overnerf to appease the e-peen envious?

Actually, I've made my feelings about ER clear long before Dhuum. It's just that I only now decided to suggest a change. Probably bad timing though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

FAIL.

ER is not used in overpowered/solo farms like 55, 600, perma. Enough.

Yes, because the only time something needs to be nerfed is when it's used for farming. Making other professions useless is fine, right? That's what this is about. There is no reason to play a monk when ER builds are possible, just like there's no point in playing any profession other than the assassin while SF is maintainable.

Riot Narita · Nov 25, 2009, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

1. If ER goes down, your team get's in huge trouble for a good 30 seconds.
2. No condition or hex removal. If your physicals are pounded by blind, to bad.
3. Spamming a spell that leaves you at 50% health makes you the prime target of any PvE foe.

1. No. You still have a large pool of energy (you're an ele, remember?) that you need to manage until you put ER etc back up.
2. No. You can bring hex removal and/or condition removal if needed.
3. Prot saves the day, either your own or other party member's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by StormX

monks can do the protting better.

No.

I'm having a hard time believing either of you has really played an ER Infuser. Or if you did, you tried to do literally everything yourself - with no backup heal, prot, or condition/hex removal in the party whatsoever.

Test Me · Nov 25, 2009, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Yes, because the only time something needs to be nerfed is when it's used for farming. Making other professions useless is fine, right? That's what this is about. There is no reason to play a monk when ER builds are possible, just like there's no point in playing any profession other than the assassin while SF is maintainable.

Do you really need me to quote myself: "FAIL"
How can you even begin to complain that monks are useless because of ER when you *don't even play one*? It is impossible to comprehend, though I admit I have a logic mind... my disadvantage.

Disregarding your absurd claim that an elementalist that has to sacrifice 5 skills on his bar in order to make spamming 2 monk skills possible is *better* than a monk that can use all his 8 skills for healing and protection... let me give you some usages for a Mo today (since the hint was obviously too obscure for you): 55, 600/smite runs on any dungeon for cash, 600/smite any elite area for farms, 600/smite in teams for maxing luxon and kurz titles by repeated and fast vanq, so on.

Exactly how are monks rendered useless by ER eles more precisely? And exactly how is the ER ele replacing the Mo in all of the above? I haven't heard any team kicking a Mo cause an ER ele came along. I've never even seen a "GLF ER ele" actually. Not to mention that I've never heard of groups of 8 ER eles doing any speed clears or vanqs.

And yes, unless it's used like a gimmick build allowing dungeon runs for cash, allowing quick faction vanquishes, allowing elite area farming, etc.; unless all that, I don't think it's over powered. It's a decent build that people might take along but it most definitively does not render monks unusable as a class. Your logic needs to be a bit defective to claim that.

AtomicMew · Nov 25, 2009, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

How can you even begin to complain that monks are useless because of ER when you *don't even play one*?

You don't need to play a monk to see how much more overpowered ER infuse is. On the other hand, I have both an ele and monk, so that makes me perfectly qualified.

Quote:

It is impossible to comprehend, though I admit I have a logic mind...

Not really.

Quote:

Disregarding your absurd claim that an elementalist that has to sacrifice 5 skills on his bar in order to make

5 skills? WTH are you talking about, dude? All you NEED is ER and infuse. You then fill the rest of your bar up with enchants which you can spam as much as you want on recharge or maintained enchants which you can then maintain on your entire party.

Quote:

55, 600/smite runs on any dungeon for cash, 600/smite any elite area for farms, 600/smite in teams for maxing luxon and kurz titles by repeated and fast vanq, so on.

Wow, way to completely miss the point.

Quote:

And yes, unless it's used like a gimmick build allowing dungeon runs for cash, allowing quick faction vanquishes, allowing elite area farming, etc.; unless all that, I don't think it's over powered. It's a decent build that people might take along but it most definitively does not render monks unusable as a class.

Wow, way to completely miss the point.

Quote:

Your logic needs to be a bit defective to claim that.

CSB.